Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

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wasuky
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Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by wasuky » Mon Oct 12, 2020 16:57

I have been trying to make a some spreadable ham. The whole process goes well except when I use the pressure cooker.

This is the result:
97f3c6e3-39a1-4ed6-ab3a-e98d304ce457.jpg
a911b505-4c84-49fd-bb96-c7247583cf7a.jpg
The recipe:

1kg Pork meat - 70/30
15gr Salt
5gr Sugar
3gr Curing salt #1
0,5 Citric Acid

1gr Coriander
6gr White Pepper
3gr Sweet Paprika
1gr Nutmeg

I grind the meat using a 5mm disc. Mix with the salt, sugar and curing salt. I then put the meat in mason jars and cook it at 75-80 ºC for 1hr. After it's cooked and a bit cold I break the meat and mix it with the rest of ingredients and then I grind it 2 more times using a 3mm disc. Then I finally put the meat in the final mason jar and in the pressure cooker for 1hour30min at 10psi. The caps are tighten using my finger tip.

Now, I have used different meat/fat ratio and different bottle head space and for some reason I always get all or almost all the liquid out of the jar. It's frustrating.

I used my home pressure cook at first and I thought this was the issue (I was not sure if my pressure cooker held some pressure inside and then I opened it, the jars had some differential-pressure issue and the liquid went out). I then stole a pro sterlizer from a friend but got the same result.

The head space I have worked with goes from half jar empty to almost full (full of meat or filled with oil to the top or almost to the top). Anyway I always had the same result.

A month ago I made a 3kg batch (13 jars). 4 jars came up great (the meat was against the whole bottle surface with nice colour), 3 not so great (with liquid at the half of the bottle - the meat seemed to shrinked and darken at the top) and the rest horrible (with little or no liquid, the meat shrinked a lot separating itself from the jar surface and the top darken a lot).

I consider the jars in the pictures, horrible (even thought the meat did not darken).

Got some suggestion?
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by StefanS » Tue Oct 13, 2020 01:48

Very typical when you are using pressure cooker/sterilizer in processing with glass jars. On pictures also visible European lids (weaker in higher temp/pressure than American Mason lids. There are some procedures to minimalize (not completely avoid) leak of liquid . What I did - after filling jars I have close them very lightly with lid. Then put them in cooker and filled up with water around 1/2 inch below lid. Heated open cooker to point of boiling and then kept that way around 15 minutes (or internal temp - around 60*C ). At this point - used rags, gloves, towels for hands safety - i closed jars very tightly. Then cooker is close to built pressure and temperature of sterilization.(I count time of process from point of reaching settings with pressure and temp. (i hope so that you know rules and correlation of time, pressure and temperature). Any way - I turn off heating medium in 3/4 of process of required time. After that I have covered pressure cooker with towels and blanket to slowing process of cooling. And letting it stay that way until next day. (most important part in that process is from end of heating/beginning of cooling to opening cooker).
There is also another way but it is illegal/danger and I won't discus it.
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by wasuky » Tue Oct 13, 2020 02:43

I don't understand. I use jars from the same manufacturer, same volume (just shorter and wider) to cook fish. The only head space I leave when canning tuna is maybe 1cm -sometimes I don't even leave head space-. I always have some loss but it's so minimal that I can't even notice it by looking at the jar (I know I had loss because the water in the cooker get oily and smelly).

This is the jar I use for fish:
1.JPG
I will cook the ham in these jars to see what happens but I am not putting my hopes too high.
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by Bob K » Tue Oct 13, 2020 13:37

I have done a lot of canning but not with the one piece lids. Two points that Stefan made are important to minimising liquid loss and almost 100% successful seals. 1. HEAD space - a must with pressure canning 1/2 " (13-14 MM) minimum. 2. Let jars cool in pressure cooker under pressure, minimum time before opening lid is until all pressure is lost in canner, longer if possible. Yes that is time consuming but in definitely works
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by wasuky » Wed Oct 14, 2020 00:09

Mine is an electric pressure cooker with an ON/OFF button and that's it. When ON, the resistor goes wild and heat up as much as it can while the weight regulates the pressure. Now... what if I install a potentiometer (a device that allows me to regulate how much power goes to the resistor)??
That way I could go from full power (10-11psi) and slowly go down to OFF, that way the pressure would not drop so fast and theoretically they should not siphon or at least not as muchs as they're doing now, right???

That would save me a lot of troubles, since my pressure cooker is an old and big one and I can make batches of 39 of my regular jars (that's almost 8kg of meat). I don't see myself tightening 39 hot jars... just the idea scares the fridge out of me.
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by StefanS » Wed Oct 14, 2020 13:51

Main problem with jars is when you start cooling down. Pressure inside cooker is dropping faster than in jars. Difference in that two values of pressure is that liquid is forced out of jar. (that not happened when jars filled with liquid or semiliquid staff).
wasuky wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 00:09
hat would save me a lot of troubles, since my pressure cooker is an old and big one and I can make batches of 39 of my regular jars (that's almost 8kg of meat). I don't see myself tightening 39 hot jars... just the idea scares the fridge out of me.
you can avoid that by letting jars boil in open cooker for around 15-20 minutes (just close jars without full force ). Reason - during heating but without pressure build-up inside jars rising temperature of mince is forcing a lot of air out (you can observe that when you will heat up jars completely submerged in water - before water boiling you should see air bubbles coming from under lids).
Is your big and old pressure cooker is heavy duty and has pressure manometer ?-
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by wasuky » Wed Oct 14, 2020 15:31

StefanS wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 13:51
s your big and old pressure cooker is heavy duty and has pressure manometer ?
Yes. It's heavy duty with manometer.
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by Butterbean » Sat Oct 17, 2020 22:33

I agree with what Bob said but would like to add (this touches on what Stefan said) bring your canner up to pressure slowly allowing the contents to come up to heat. If you do this you will avoid a temperature differential between the contents of the jars and the inside of the pressure canner. I do a fair amount of canning and have little to no trouble with siphoning by following these steps.
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by wasuky » Sat Oct 17, 2020 22:46

So, if I put all the jars (closed as I would normally do) in Boling water for 20-30min (enough for the meat to heats up) and then move them all into the boiling pressure canner, it should minimize the siphoning, right?
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by Butterbean » Sun Oct 18, 2020 16:54

wasuky wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 22:46
So, if I put all the jars (closed as I would normally do) in Boling water for 20-30min (enough for the meat to heats up) and then move them all into the boiling pressure canner, it should minimize the siphoning, right?
I guess but I don't know why you'd want to do it that way when you can do the same in the pressure canner - moving hot jars could be dangerous I'd think.

What I do is fill to the recommended headspace then place the jars in the pressure canner with at least 3" of water in it. If my jars are cold, I use cold water in the canner, if hot I first heat the water to a simmer. I then place the jars in the canner and gradually raise the heat up until it is venting good and the safety valve pops up on its own. Then I place the weight on the canner and back the flame down so it takes about 15-20 minutes to come up to pressure. Then I begin timing. Also, when the time is up I merely turn the flame off and leave the canner alone until the safety valve pops down and then I leave it for another hour or so. I think to many get in a hurry and want to hear the jars ping which is a good sound but I think patience wins on quality in the end. Hope this makes sense.
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by wasuky » Sun Oct 18, 2020 18:17

A question.

In my recipe... Is it really necessary to sterilize at 121 °C? I mean... The end of using that temp is to get rid of Clostridium botulinum complications, right? Wouldn't the use of nitrite have the same end (inhibiting botulinum)?
I mean... Using curing salt in the recipe and boiling the jars could have the same effect?
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by StefanS » Mon Oct 19, 2020 00:13

wasuky wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 18:17
A question.

In my recipe... Is it really necessary to sterilize at 121 °C? I mean... The end of using that temp is to get rid of Clostridium botulinum complications, right? Wouldn't the use of nitrite have the same end (inhibiting botulinum)?
I mean... Using curing salt in the recipe and boiling the jars could have the same effect?
very smart approach and thinking. IMHO opinion - yes and no. Clostridium botulinum produces deadliest nasty staff - but is inhibited by nitrite. Along other bacteria - some of them produce spores resistant for very high temperatures. Generally - temp. 121*C should kill these bacteria and spores also. Some recipes required that high temperatures for necessary part of process (example - when nitrites not used or to taste of products). It is required also for food supplies kept for storage for years. It is used mainly to processing food in metal tin cans. Commercial producers rarely using glass jars for process of sterilization. Fragile material (glass), difficulty of sealing (lids), delicate process in autoclaves, Short period of storage, UV in light my contact with contest of glass jars. etc . Also our pressure cooker - they are not that exactly holding pressure and temperatures, secondly - even experienced meat maker can have difficulty to precisely and timely make process of sterilization.
For glass jars my polish colleagues mostly using "triple pasteurization" - (example for quart jar ) - 90 minutes of slow boiling/simmering "finger tight" jars, 24 hours of resting without removing jars from cooker, then 60 minutes boiling/simmering, 24 hours rest in cooker, then 45 min. boiling/simering - end of process - cooling and removing to storage (in refrigerator up to 9 months). Very short explanation - first heating period - annihilate bacteria, yeasts, some spores. Then resting period - developing conditions for spores can germinate - then again killing developed and growing germs and finally repeating third time that step. Process is done in temperatures at or very near 100*C. without any pressure. Also jars completely covered with water.
In your recipe - really you do not need 121*C. Hopefully above short explanation will answer some of your questions.
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by Butterbean » Mon Oct 19, 2020 18:34

Sounds reasonable but I don't know. I see a lot of people who use the pasteurization method like Stefan describes but I've never done that but have thought of it similar to how the USDA recommends you cooking chicken to 165F. While this is correct in a sense and it will kill the salmonella in one second in the end it creates a chicken breast not fit to eat in my view. However, salmonella is also killed if it is subjected to 30 minutes of 145F heat. Understanding this difference, IMHO, means the difference between having to eat dry chicken breasts versus luxuriously tender and moist chicken breasts. And dead is dead, right? So both are safe in the end if you do things correctly.

This is sort of how I view the pasteurization but this is only my hunch on how it could be safe. But botulism is a rare thing and in my view using a pressure canner is pretty easy work and doesn't take much time so I'll stick with it when it comes to canning certain foods because I know its safe and in my situation its much more convenient.
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by wasuky » Mon Oct 19, 2020 22:33

So due to language differences (I speak Spanish) I thought the words "pressure cooker" and "pressure canner" meant the same when people refered to them (this is why heating up the jars in boiling water inside the pressure cooker didn't make sense to me). Turns out what the old and big pressure cooker I use is actually an autoclave
olla-autoclave-tipo-olla-industrial-18-litros-nueva-D_NQ_NP_613103-MLV40942370346_022020-F.jpg
this one has an inner piece where I put the jars on and they never get in contact with the boiling water. When I said "I have a pressure cooker" I asked to myself... "how the heck is this a cooker? well... I guess an expert should know how to make a nice stew here".

Anyway, I tried another small batch of the spreadable ham. This time I put the jars in boiling water for 30min. I used 4 of my regular jars and 2 smaller (same volume but smaller). I also filled them with different amount of the mix (2 regular bottles were filled until 1" headspace and the rest were mixed). I have to say they lost less liquid than the last time but they keep losing (and that kinda making me lose my mind).
IMG_20201018_090308999.jpg
- The 1st (the one on the left) jar was filled with a bit of the mix that was left - 135gr with half bottle of headspace, something like 1 1/2".
- The other 2 were filled with 150gr and 1" headspace. For some reason they came up differently.
IMG_20201018_090325428.jpg
- The 1st jar was filled with 170gr and 1/2" headspace.
- The 2nd was filled with 160gr and something like 3/4" headspace.
- The 3rd had 180gr and less than 1/4" headspace. It was almost to the top.

It can't be seen on the 2nd picture but the 2nd and 3rd jars (the smaller ones) came up with the same liquid amount.

I will certainly keep trying to get some good looking jars using the pressure canner. I don't want to tempt my lucky by just putting the jars in boiling water.
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Re: Lots of liquid loss when canning spreadable ham

Post by Butterbean » Tue Oct 20, 2020 00:33

Your canner looks similar to mine but mine sits on a burner and you add water to the canner itself. Could you do that with yours? The reason I ask is I think water inside the canner itself helps to stabilize the temperature and often times its the instability in the heat that causes vacuuming. I might should rephrase this which might help get my point across better. You know we say we cook with heat but that's not really true because we cook with energy. Air will hold less energy than water will which is why we can stick our arm in a 250F oven but if we did that with water we'd have third degree burns. The water in the canner takes longer to heat than air and heated water is more stable than heated air. This, I think, could be the root of your problem because if you are only using heated air or steam then I would think you could have some quick swings in temperature which could definitely cause siphoning.

Also, its very helpful when you are canning meat to wipe the rim of the jar with vinegar to cut any grease you may get on the rim. I do this religiously.

Another thing I've noticed with meat is simply that some meat is going to contain more air than other meats and this will come to the top and become evident once its processed. One thing you might want to try is once you get your system refined some try canning some cubed meat just cubed and pressed hard into the jar. I do this with pork sometimes and I'll use sausage seasoning and Cure 1 and dose each jar accordingly. This is stuffed into the jar tightly with no added liquid. What I find is I get very little shrink in air space with pork compared to chicken. I've never done ground meat so I can't speak on that one. But what I'm saying is there are some things that are just going to make the head space larger but with these you could adjust accordingly.
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