Direct acidification with Lactic Acid in cooked salami: texture vs ferment

Post Reply
Dave in AZ
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 21:44

Direct acidification with Lactic Acid in cooked salami: texture vs ferment

Post by Dave in AZ » Tue Sep 20, 2022 00:22

I used the SEARCH and read 33 topics on Lactic Acid, and 15 on citric acid. All but one were discussing lactic acid producion by bacterial ferment.

My question is this: in a cooked salami, why would meat texture from direct lactic acid addition be any worse or more crumbly than that achieved by a 2 or 3 day ferment using a culture?

Basically I want to make Taylor Pork roll, which is just a cooked fast salami made of ground butt with salt and pepper, acidified by a lactic ferment, then cooked via sous vide. I have various cultures, and a curing cave fridge setup. However, because Taylor Pork roll is just a fast ferment with little aging, thus little if any bacterial flavor enhancement, I'd like to try just adding lactic acid, using cure1 and sodium erythorbate accelerator, and going right to SV.

The topic of discussion I am interested in is texture degradation of sausage, crumbliness, caused by acid introduction before protein setting at 110f or so. Everyone constantly talks how citric acid will turn your sausage crumbly if you don't use the Encapsulated version to keep it from mixing with meat until 130f or so. But I have never seen anyone address the fact a fermented sausage will have days of lactic acid action on the proteins, which should ALSO result in a crumbly texture in a COOKED fermented product.
-- Is this just because there are few COOKED fermented products besides meat sticks and Taylor Pork Roll?
-- If I can ferment a pork roll salami for 2 to 5 days to acidify and then cook, or smoke and cook in the Case product, and have an acceptable sausage texture... then why can't I just add lactic acid and cook, reducing protein acid exposure from many days down to an hour or so?

I have plenty of ECA, but getting Encapsulated Lactic Acid is almost impossible in consumer amounts, so I'd like to try with just normal lactic acid powder. I am aware of Smooth Acid Blend lactic/citric supposedly encapsulated, but again sourcing is much harder accomplished than typed on the internet as a solution.

Thanks for any discussion on direct acid addition and texture in cooked sausage, or actual viable sourcing for Encapsulated Lactic Acid
Dave in AZ
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 21:44

Re: Direct acidification with Lactic Acid in cooked salami: texture vs ferment

Post by Dave in AZ » Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:52

P.s I did source a "Smooth Acid Blend" from spokane spice today. They read ingredients on phone to me, and is says encapsulated lactic acid and encapsulated citric acid. $29 for 8oz though so... rather just use cheap LA from Amazon and everywhere.
jens49
User
User
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 15:41
Location: Jylland

Re: Direct acidification with Lactic Acid in cooked salami: texture vs ferment

Post by jens49 » Tue Sep 20, 2022 14:22

Gdl will lower the pH quite fast and without too much tang. Used correctly it will not ruin the texture.
Citric acid would also be fast but probably really tart.
User avatar
redzed
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3859
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 06:29
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: Direct acidification with Lactic Acid in cooked salami: texture vs ferment

Post by redzed » Fri Sep 23, 2022 19:05

Exactly what product are you referring as "cheap lactic acid"?
Dave in AZ
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 21:44

Re: Direct acidification with Lactic Acid in cooked salami: texture vs ferment

Post by Dave in AZ » Fri Sep 23, 2022 21:33

Just regular powdered food grade lactic acid, available on Amazon from 10 or more suppliers.
Not ENCAPSULATED Lactic Acid, which is expensive and so far impossible to source in less than 100 lbs.

In any case, my opening question remains: why would acidification of meat using Lactic or Citric acid, added directly, be any different on the texture/binding/crumbliness of a cooked sausage, than using a culture to produce the same amount of acid in the meat, over several days? Why does everyone warn that acid must be encapsulated so it doesn't ruin texture, and yet it is fine to culture and acidify meat sticks and pork rolls etc? Is it just an ignored area?

It just seems illogical, and like producers looking for high speed reliable production would replace lactic acid ferment with easy lactic or citric acid additions instead. But I haven't found any studies or articles or user tests comparing product texture, using google.
Seems an interesting discussion area, to me.
Thx
Dave in AZ
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 21:44

Re: Direct acidification with Lactic Acid in cooked salami: texture vs ferment

Post by Dave in AZ » Sun Jun 16, 2024 23:35

Found my old thread. Follow up. I read a bunch of meat science studies. Basically, there is a limit to how fast of a pH drop meat can take without ruining the protein bonds and making it crumbly. Once meat proteins are set by cooking at 130-135f, acidification doesn't break them and texture remains decent. Therefore, encapsulation of citric acid works fine when the oil encapsulation breaks at 135f or so.

Direct chemical acidification gives immediate pH drop, vs natural Lactic Acid bacteria acidification, which occurs very gradually and in minute increments over 12 to 36 hrs. With LAB, over a 10 minute span you never see pH drop more than 0.05 or less. But with a direct dump of acid, you get a 0.5 to 1.0 pH drop all within minutes, so the rate of change is 100 times or more what bacteria produce. A study I read showed that in beef and pork sausages, the max amount that tasters tolerated before rejecting the texture, was 0.1 pH at once, separated by at least 1 hr before next acidification. This meant that for normal pH sausage levels, a producer would have to hold and handle the meat 7 or 8 times over a 10 hr period... and could instead just use fast acting LHP, F1, OR FLC cultures to give the full drop in 12 hours with a single mix. Therefore, direct chemical acidification of meat was deemed of no benefit, or actually a large cost increase for zero time benefit.
jens49
User
User
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 15:41
Location: Jylland

Re: Direct acidification with Lactic Acid in cooked salami: texture vs ferment

Post by jens49 » Mon Jun 17, 2024 04:54

A post like this is the reason why this forum should be kept alive.
Thank you Dave in AZ
User avatar
michi
User
User
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:59
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: Direct acidification with Lactic Acid in cooked salami: texture vs ferment

Post by michi » Mon Jun 17, 2024 23:00

Dave in AZ wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2024 23:35
Found my old thread. Follow up. I read a bunch of meat science studies. Basically, there is a limit to how fast of a pH drop meat can take without ruining the protein bonds and making it crumbly.
Great explanation, thanks!
Post Reply