smoked hocks

ssorllih · Post by **ssorllih** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 21:55

Marty, Sodium Nitrite is the thing that makes pork leg taste like ham without it you just get roast pork. In the US the use of nitirtes is limited to about 156 parts per million. Nitartes occur naturally in many vegatables including spinach at about 2000 parts per million. That said about a teaspoonful 5 grams of sodium nitrite will cancel your clock. But 5 grams at 156 parts per million would cure about 32 kilograms of meat. I think if you ate that much at one sitting it wouldn't be the nitrite that would do you in. This is what pork cured with nitrite looks like when smoked over hickory wood.

We all know what roast pork looks like.
You should be alarmed about botulisium because it doesn't read the statistics and doesn't forgive any mistakes.

Darthfrog · Post by **Darthfrog** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 22:39

Marty wrote: I'm not sure whether to be alarmed or not by botulism. Here in New Zealand I have several choices of nitrite free, free range, organic pork products that I can buy from the supermarket.

Hi Marty, welcome!

Ross has already told you about the low levels of nitrite (N02) used to cure meat. Don't forget that most of the nitrite will be non-persistant, being converted into the free radical nitric oxide (NO*) which does the actual curing.

However, I'd like to speak to your point about the "nitrite free, free range, organic pork" available to you. If this is fresh meat, then no problem and it sounds like high quality meat to be enjoyed.

However, if it is cured meat (bacon, ham, etc.) then you need to know a bit more. There is an almost magical quality, it seems, attached to the marketing word (for that is all it is these days) "organic". Check your nitrite-free, organic bacon and see if celery juice is listed as an ingredient. If so, it is being used to cure the meat, as celery (and quite a few other common food plants) contains a large amount of sodium nitrate (NO3).

Sodium nitrate is slower curing agent than is sodium nitrite, as it requires bacterial action to convert the nitrate into nitrite before curing takes place. So your nitrite-free cured meats may well be everything that the "organic" consumer is trying to avoid, and worse.

Worse? How? Because of the nitrate containing in the celery juice. Nitrate is prohibited in the US as a curing agent for bacon. Bacon is a product that is frequently cooked extra-crispy; i.e. prolonged exposure to high heat. This favours the production of nitrosamines, a known carcinogen. Using inorganic sodium nitrite to cure your meats avoids this issue. Eating "organic" bacon favours the possible production and consumption of a carcinogen.

The label "organic" is, IMNSHO, pretty much a scam these days. Its allowed usage has been so corrupted as to be meaningless, frequently enabling the legitimate sale of the exact opposite of what it was originally intended to prohibit.

--
Cheers,
Rob

IMNSHO - In My Not So Humble Opinion

Cabonaia · Post by **Cabonaia** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 01:27

Hey Marty - Welcome!

My wife brought home some "uncured" pastrami that had celery juice powder in the ingredients. It had an unearthly green shimmer to it. Which means it was overcured, actually. Opposite of what she wanted and what she was promised by the label. I am sure that "uncured" is a legal definition, allowed by our Food & Drug Administration, as lobbied by the food industry, to fool us into paying extra for inferior products.

Keep reading and educating yourself about the supposed danger of nitrites in cured meats. It is very interesting, and was eye opening for me. If you plan on making any kind of sausage besides fresh, you will need cure if you want to stay alive.

Cheers,
Jeff

ssorllih · Post by **ssorllih** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 03:31

I have a basic rule that I live by, I don't buy food that I can't buy all of the ingredients for locally.

Marty · Post by **Marty** » Thu Jul 26, 2012 05:02

I haven't made sausages yet Cabonaia, fresh or cured - thats next level for me! If and when I do get there however I will most certainly be doing extensive research before I start :D

Also, I must correct my previous statement concerning said porky bits! It is not "organic" pork. Free range most definitely, but not organic - I'm sorry(esp. to Rob aka. Darthfrog!) to mislead people by saying this! I can get a bit excited sometimes, especially because I'm quite new to all this and my current project is learning about making bacon safely... :D

Anyhow I really appreciate the replies so far - I'm quite glad I asked because it was bothering me last night. I have emailed the producer and she assured me that all they use for the bacon is salt, brown sugar, herbs and cold smoking @ ~10°C. Ideally they like to cold smoke at 4-6°C but I'm guessing that the 10-12°C range is because of summer. I might add that they themselves don't cure the bacon. It is done in a commercial butchery to their (the pork producers) specifications. Also our climate in this part of New Zealand during the summer is quite hot and dry - probably quite good for making jerky! mmmmm jerky.... sorry, getting off topic...

So, being winter here at the moment, the shadier parts of my garden are rarely rising above 8-10°C, so as soon as my smoking barrel is complete I'm going to do me a cold smokey bacon, without sodium nitrite! Or celery salt! And I might do it in my underpants under a full moon! :P Muahahaha!

Thanks guys!

*edit to include Rob (Darthfrog) in my apology!

Darthfrog · Post by **Darthfrog** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 03:26

Marty wrote:, so as soon as my smoking barrel is complete I'm going to do me a cold smokey bacon, without sodium nitrite! Or celery salt! And I might do it in my underpants under a full moon! Muahahaha!

You know, Marty, we usually like to see pictures of the process. But I think I speak for the rest of the forum when I say, I don't think we're interested in those pictures.

However, if you'd care to get behind the camera instead of in front of it, I'd certainly like to see pictures of the actual process. In particular, I'd like to see what the meat looks like before and after smoking, some slices in the pan before and after cooking. And your commentary of your journey, especially your opinion of the eating quality of the end product would be quite interesting.

Please realise that if you don't cure your pork belly, you're not going to have the typical bacon taste. Rather, you will have smoked salt pork belly. Once you've eaten some, I'd like to know what you think of that compared to cured bacon?

--
Cheers,
Rob

Marty · Post by **Marty** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 04:31

Not sure if I will be bothered to document all of this because I'm still learning. As for it tasting like smoked salt pork... I have to disagree with you on that one. The nitrite free bacon I have been eating from these producers is quite simply the best "smoked salt pork" I have ever eaten in my life. As I say, I'm still learning, and yes I certainly will give the sodium nitrite cure a try!

Marty · Post by **Marty** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 06:33

I have gone ahead and purchased some Prague Powder #1 - I'm looking forward to trying it out. The internet is a dangerous place - full of good and bad information. The more reading I have done, the more confusing it gets!

I kind of stopped giving a rats **** in general after reading this:

http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.co.nz/2 ... -make.html

I feel strangely at ease all of a sudden...

Thankyou for your patience in dealing in this young whippersnapper !

I have to say however this one thing. I would love to see some sort of sticky post somewhere explaining what Prague Powder #1 and #2 is. Being a new member to this forum I went straight to the recipes list and boggled at the sheer number of recipes.

After reading a few I immediately noticed the use of this Prague Powder #1 and #2 stuff. I initially thought it was something you had to make yourself and that there must be a recipe for it somewhere on here.

After some time I finally put 2 + 2 together and realised what it is. I actually thought that sodium nitrite and sodium nitrate were separate things altogether and that Prague Powder was (and is) some sort of colouring/flavouring agent that was purely optional.

Thankyou again for opening my eyes. I go now having learned a great many things today.

Darthfrog · Post by **Darthfrog** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 18:43

Marty wrote: After some time I finally put 2 + 2 together and realised what it is. I actually thought that sodium nitrite and sodium nitrate were separate things altogether and that Prague Powder was (and is) some sort of colouring/flavouring agent that was purely optional.

The same thing goes by various names: Prague Powder, Tinted Curing Mix, InstaCure, ModernCure. They are generically called curing salts. They come in two species, usually termed #1 & #2, which are different and not (shouddn't be) interchangable. #1 contains 6.25% sodium nitrate (NO2) in a salt matrix. It may have a bit of red food colouring added to it, such that it turns pink (and is sometimes then called "pink salt"); this is strictly for identification so that the user doesn't accidentally use it as regular salt.

#2 contains 4% sodium nitrate (NO3) in addition to the sodium nitrite (NO2) in the salt matrix. This curing salt is not intended for fresh sausages, bacon, etc. that will be smoked and cooked. Rather it is used in making fermented dry charcuterie, such as salami, that are not cooked and left to cure for prolonged periods of time. The nitrate (NO3) in the #2 cure provides for a prolonged, slow release of nitrite (NO2) as bacterial action reduces nitrate to nitrite.

I have seen reference to a curing salt available in the Antipodes, called Kuritkwik which has, I believe, 12.5% sodium nitrite (NO2) in a salt matrix (i.e. twice as much sodium nitrite as cure #1). If you use this product, you would have to adjust any recipe using cure #1 to compensate for the difference by halving the amount of curing salt used.

Unless you were making charcuterie that is cured by fermenting/drying for a prolonged period, you will probably never need cure #2.

--
Cheers,
Rob
who's making andouille sausage today

crustyo44 · Post by **crustyo44** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 21:16

Hi Marty,
Make sure you use a cure and it's #1 for bacon as advised by all the brains on this forum.
At least you will live a long a fruitful life. Here in Australia we had a a few deaths by accidentially omitting the cure about 10 years ago. These people were manufacturers too, makes you wonder about their work practices.
I make sausages, biltong, bacon etc etc and I give a lot of them to my grandkids and friends. At least I can sleep at night knowing that I've done the right thing by everyone concerned.
Being in New Zealand, you should also start making some salamis, the climate is right most of the time, unlike here in Brisbane. Do use Cure # 2 though for anything that needs drying a long time.
If you like a good smoked biltong recipe just PM me.
Best Regards,
Jan. Brisbane.

Chuckwagon · Post by **Chuckwagon** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 21:51

Marty, you wrote:

I have to say however this one thing. I would love to see some sort of sticky post somewhere explaining what Prague Powder #1 and #2 is. Being a new member to this forum I went straight to the recipes list and boggled at the sheer number of recipes.

Marty, there IS a sticky and it even refers to New Zealand at the bottom. Click on this link: http://wedlinydomowe.pl/en/viewtopic.php?t=4794. I posted this one month after this site went on line. You really should explore ALL the forum topics on the index page and check all of the stickys. Also, the "search" function is a powerful tool. Search will bring up a multitude of info about nitrate/nitrite usage. The information you are looking for is here.

Every new member receives a letter from me explaining how to negotiate this website and it explains where to find specific information. How about clicking on the "new messages" icon at the top of the index page and re-read the letter. We understand your disappointment in many other sites on the internet, and you are correct about most of it being confusing. However if you bother to read about the history of this site, you`ll see that it was designed by professionals and sponsored by the very fine Szkoły Domowego Masarstwa, (Polish School Of Meat Processing), the ONLY school of its type in the world.

Marty, you wrote:

The internet is a dangerous place - full of good and bad information. The more reading I have done, the more confusing it gets!

The way you can tell if an internet site is reliable and reputable is to look at who is making money by its existence. The bottom line may be startling. This site has no advertising and has no merchants lining their pockets. It does, however, have a multitude of altruistic sponsors and patrons who are looking to help their fellow man by supporting this site. Yes, you may trust the wisdom that has been displayed on Wedliny Domowe. We`ve had our share of "spammers" and a few crackpots who like to disrupt anything wholesome. These are the grubbers who get "the boot". Overall however, most people are honest and helpful on this site and I am proud to be associated with them. In my opinion, the active group of participants on this site is made up of some of the world`s finest sausagemakers as well as being a select group of very nice people.

So Marty, ask questions and learn. There are many professionals here who will help you. Over the past couple of years, they have written something concerning just about every topic in sausagemaking. Moreover, the recipes and techniques of author Stan Marianski is available here. Unlike other authors, Stan has graciously published his book online. The information is FREE of charge. Click on this link and move your cursor arrow over the topics at the top of the page to view subtopics: http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making . Now friend, it`s up to you to read it.

Best Wishes,
Chuckwagon